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Challenging Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 12/15/2006; 5:20 PM "Don't ever be so arrogant to believe it [the Holocaust] can't happen again; to do so is the first step to the death camps." - Halina Birenbaum, Holocaust survivor, poet, writer. Godwin's Law is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (i.e. certainty).“ There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. This is a good tradition in theory, especially since you have people from all sides of the political spectrum comparing everyone from animal rights activists, to pacifists, even some Jews (particularly the far-Right Wing Likud party of Israel) to Hitler and/or the Nazis. There is an argument to be made that by completely taking Adolf Hitler's foreign and domestic policies off the table for discussion, it raises the bar for "evil" so incredibly high that at a certain point, someone not being "as bad" as Hitler becomes a legitimate defense for any sort of act. Strictly following the tradition that arose from Godwin’s Law causes us to ignore threats to our freedom that are right under our noses. Many times in debates about George W. Bush, I have heard people say without a trace of irony, that you shouldn't engage in what are perfectly legitimate comparisons between his administration and that of Adolf Hitler prior to the outbreak of World War II because he's "not as bad as Hitler." Generally speaking I would agree with that, but such statements can’t be considered a defense. Now, let's ignore the verbal gaff (or is it a Freudian slip?) where the words "as bad" get used for a moment and go back to my comment about the proverbial bar. To say that George W. Bush is a good leader, merely because during his term in office he hasn't condoned or silently ordered the mass executions of Jews, Mormons, Homosexuals, Gypsies, Communists, Liberals, and other groups that many people today don't even know about isn‘t good enough. What astonishes me most about this argument is, while true, it's disturbing that this is for many the automatic first response to any comparisons between Bush and Hitler, legitimate and ridiculous alike. For starters, “bad” is too subjective a word. Secondly, as Michael Moore puts it in his book Stupid White Men, and I'm paraphrasing here, "This is a kid's game! You put any two people together and ask which one is 'worse,' people will usually choose the bigger jerk. Hitler was worse than Mussolini. A Ford is worse than a Chevy. I am definitely worse than my wife." I won't dispute that Bush is not "as bad" as Hitler by just about any standard by which the two leaders can be measured, but to assume that lets the man off the hook for lying about war, ordering the deaths of as many as six-hundred thousand innocent Iraqis and then denying that it even happened in the face of a peer-reviewed scientific study from a respected American institution (Johns Hopkins University), among other atrocious policies both foreign and domestic is disgusting and demeaning. It is entirely possible that we are experiencing a cosmic deja-vu, wherein America of 2006 is eerily similar to Germany of 1936, but how can we know if we’re not allowed to have the discussion? That’s the long term effect of Godwin‘s Law, which I doubt many people even consider. I know I'm going to anger a lot of people of all political stripes with this thesis, but like the old cliché goes, those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Even with everything we've all learned about the Nazis from our history classes in school, there are many things we either forgot, or never knew in the first place. It's those things the collective American consciousness doesn't know that make Godwin’s Law so dangerous. I’m not talking about discussing their personalities, and I am certainly not talking about the trivial similarities that any two randomly selected peoples can share regardless of how diametrically opposite they are. I mean the discussion should be open, without brining Godwin into it, about the similarities between their policies and actions in similar circumstances. There are many more examples of course. There are tales of Holocaust survivors moving back to Germany at the ages of 80 and higher because things seems frighteningly familiar. It is not my place to make the case that Bush is indeed truly an “evil man” in the way Hitler and other elected leaders who grabbed too much power were however. That is not what this is about. This is about the need to have that discussion. The rest is up to the scholars, the survivors, the veterans; people who are more wizened on this subject than I could ever hope to be.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 7/26/2005; 4:15 PM I cleaned it up a little bit. Hope it's better.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Mark Morgan on 8/20/2005; 1:15 PM Better enough to show up on Wikipedia (see External Links and References). I'm a little surprised The Game never made it, but what do I know?
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Seth Dillingham on 8/20/2005; 1:36 PM On 8/20/05, Mark Morgan said: >Better enough to show up on Wikipedia (see External Links and >References). I'm a little surprised The Game never made it, but what do >I know? Aren't you also the Morgan listd under "Other laws and corollaries"? Seth
Re: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Mark Morgan on 8/20/2005; 1:45 PM On Aug 20, 2005, at 10:36 AM, Seth Dillingham wrote: > Aren't you also the Morgan listd under "Other laws and corollaries"? Hah! Alas, not.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 8/28/2005; 2:55 PM Hot damn. Well, I've cleaned it up a little further, mostly spelling and grammar errors.
Kinda OT By: ScottN on 8/29/2005; 5:08 PM Kinda OT, but it's sort of related. Mark, Just wanted to say how sorry I am that some people who *have* to be right all the time forced you away from NitC. I've been guilty of that on occasion (though not to you, I think). It's a shame that the place where you met your wife has become so unpleasant for you that you had to withdraw from it. Scott
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Mark Morgan on 8/30/2005; 2:50 AM Thanks, Scott. But you know, it's not so much I've been run off, more like I'm not liking the person who posts at Nitcentral. So he and I are parting ways. Life's too short for this stuff. I have a long essay I've been drafting since the other night that should hopefully put all this into some sort of perspective. Yes, I did meet my wife at Nitpicker Central. But time moves on and some of us move along with it. I do find it ironic that the party in question demanded I respond to him, immediately after I wrote that I wasn't ever coming back.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: MikeC on 9/1/2005; 10:36 AM Breaking my long absence on this board just to say you'll be missed, Mark.
Re: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Mark Morgan on 9/1/2005; 1:34 PM > Breaking my long absence on this board just to say you'll be > missed, Mark. Thanks, Mike.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 1/18/2006; 5:15 PM I think it's time for me to come clean and admit that I am completely stuck on this project. I have aboslutely no clue where to go next. I am of course working on collecting quotes from Holocaust survivors, but beyond that, I can't think of anything to say that hasn't already been said by people who are both smarter AND better writers than me on the subject of legitamate Bush/Hitler comparisons.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 2/20/2006; 12:08 PM I'm goign to be re-wroking this piece as an essay for my FictionPress.com account, my MySpace blog, as well as shorter version (or perhaps a serialized essay) for DemocracyMeansYou.com as merely a piece on why the Bush/Hitler debate should be made as opposed to making the case myself. In short, no new Breaking Godwin's Law materials will be showing up here at VoU. I hate to disapoint anyone, but writing is more like archaeology than invention, to parpahrase Stephen King. As I was uncovering this piece I found out that what I hoped to and what would actually be best were two divergent things.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: cory on 3/7/2006; 6:41 AM what??? this is rediculous. hitler could have written this... (eyes rolling)
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 3/7/2006; 1:07 PM I could make a very subtle, tounge in cheek Jon Stewart-esque dig at your poor spelling and lack of proper capitalization, but it's just easier to call you stupid.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Mark Morgan on 3/9/2006; 3:33 AM You two wanna not call each other names on my website? kthx bye
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Richard Davidson on 3/11/2006; 2:08 PM what??? this is rediculous. hitler could have written this... (eyes rolling) Hitler didn't write or speak English.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: cory on 3/14/2006; 11:50 AM "I could make a very subtle, tounge in cheek Jon Stewart-esque dig at your poor spelling and lack of proper capitalization, but it's just easier to call you stupid." It's a message board, so my grammar is not that important to be honest, especially with the subject matter that Im referring to on this page. also, even if you did make fun of my spelling etc.. it wouldn't do anything to refute what I said in the first place. Im glad you at least called me a name though. Really shows off your true intelligence, which can be attributed to how lame this whole page is. you're boring, try again... by the way... tounge?? haha... oh man haha.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 3/15/2006; 12:18 AM Well, it's clear to me that you didn't actually read what I wrote. What made it clear? The statement "how lame this whole page is." Really? What about it is lame? The facts? The accurate quotes? Or just that I had the nerve to not let the GOP do my thinking for me?
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: ScottN on 3/26/2006; 11:00 PM It's a message board, so my grammar is not that important to be honest, Actually, cory, on this board, it IS important. This board is to celebrate the written word. Look at site logo. "Voices of Unreason - Obesiances before the written word".
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Richard Davidson on 4/5/2006; 11:54 PM Actually, cory, on this board, it IS important. This board is to celebrate the written word. Look at site logo. "Voices of Unreason - Obesiances before the written word". And thank GOD for that! I get so tired of the "it's a mEsseJe bword, so I can rite lik an idiot, to be on ist" argument. Thank the Lord for ONE place on the internet where people are actually expected to have at least a THIRD GRADE FREAKING READING LEVEL!!!!!!! Also, no one addressed my argument that Hitler couldn't write in English, other than some swear words.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: cory on 4/14/2006; 4:36 AM hahaha, so funny. you guys have no idea how funny this is. oh crap!
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 4/14/2006; 10:29 AM You keep saying that, but then ofer nothing to back it up.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Richard Davidson on 4/14/2006; 8:17 PM You know, come to think of it, Hitler didn't write all that well in German, either. From what I know, he needed several proof-readers, and a team of ghost writers just to get a really good shopping list going, and that whole "Mein Kamper" thing was supposed to be a good, rollicking read about his love of the great outdoors. I guess a Jewish family got into his marshmallows, or something.
RE: Breaking Godwin's Law By: Steven Metzger on 5/15/2006; 10:19 AM I love to be able to find balanced arguments on topics of interest! My brother and I run (often) opposing viewpoints on our separate blogs, and he did a track-back to one of my posts regarding the telcos release of our telephone calling patterns, etc. to the NSA. In his trackback, he mentioned "Godwin's Law", and I read thru it. and found the link to here. My first post w/update to link to this site: http://tinyurl.com/ks8a4 My brother's counterpoint trackback can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/zla3z Note: Although it doesn't appear to be so from our posts, my brother and I love and respect each other very much, and have many things in common, politics is NOT one of them! ;-)
RE: Challenging Godwin's Law By: Brian Webber on 12/17/2006; 3:40 PM There we go, much better, and more concise. What started as an attempt at a book became a Cause & Effect essay for my English class. I got an A for it. :-) The other "chapters" of the original piece, Breaking Godwin's Law, can be deleted now.
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