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CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson on 11/3/2000; 3:39 PM Offense to God (O)(2):
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Peter on 11/3/2000; 8:17 PM Matthew, what the hell are you talking about? That last message makes no sense at all. Has Mark ben censoring and deleting and moving things again? Peter.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson, the Paranoid Minister on 11/3/2000; 8:40 PM First of all, to the best of my knowledge, there's nothing wrong with the message. I did go back and edit it to correct an HTML error or something. If you're getting these messages via email, I suggest you look at the actual message on the site to see what it says. Also to the best of my knowledge, Mark has yet to censor or move or delete anything. Well, there is One Whose Name We Are Requested Not To Speak, but that's about it.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Mark Morgan on 11/3/2000; 8:51 PM Yes, one time before Unreason became a .com I removed a post that was basically a cut and paste of someone's post on nitcentral. A mistake, as the individual then assumed that I would never criticize him again, missing the fact that two hours later I replaced that post with a hyperlink to his original comments and went ahead and criticized him anwyays. As for this thread, perhaps it makes a little more sense when you know Matt's talking about CAPAlert, movie reviews by a man with way too much time on his moralistic little hands.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: juli k on 11/3/2000; 9:04 PM ***Then he goes on to say a buncha stuff about how Wiccans are evil because they won't acknowledge Satan as being real instead of a "Christian myth," nor will they acknowledge Jesus as even having existed, even as just a good teacher.*** What? Satan isn't real? How can that be? I am Satan's Little Helper. Or at least that's what some followers of "Christianism" like to tell me....
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Peter on 11/4/2000; 9:56 AM Now I see. Perhaps you could explain what you are talking about before tearing an article to pieces. I was very impressed by the site though, and it is nice to see people can be observant about these things. I could never have noticed all the things the reviewer did in many films, although there were some things he missed out. I thought he treated The Exorcist, one of my favourite films, a little harshly, though, and he seemed to think no violence was ever justified, even moral violence, like the killing of an evil person, or the punishment of a sinner. I was pleased to see someone defend Vietnam, too. As for the Blair Witch Project 2, I thought the review was fair and sensible. What on Earth do you expect a Christian to do? Practising witchcraft is evil. If you do not believe that then you are not a Christian. The film sounds preposterous and vicious and I knoww hat he says about the ideas being passed on to be absolutely true. Last January, a few months after the first film was released, all our English class were asked to make a speech on the subject of our choice (it is an annual thing in honour of a Peer of the Realm who once gave a lot of money to the school). One girl chose the Blair Witch Project and a book about it. She stood there for five minutes or so trying to prove to us all that the Blair Witch must exist because of the unexplained deaths of three people in a forest. She didn't know it was fiction! She wasn't exactly a genius, but she was certainly not stupid either, and had a pretty typical intelligence for a 16 year old, so I ask you, if that film can make people believe the witch is real, why will the sequel not encourage witchcraft? Peter.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Mark Morgan on 11/4/2000; 10:35 AM For starters, one difference is the way to two films are marketed. The original movie was marketed, and filmed, as if it were the real experience of these three people. The cast members all went through the experience of someone seeing them and being shocked; "I thought you were dead!" The point of view was always from someone in the group filming; at no time during the first movie did you see all three cast members in the same shot. The sequel is filmed more like a traditional horror more. A not very good one, if the reviews are to be believed. Well, Ebert didn't like it. It's my understanding that the majority of the film is shot using traditional film techniques, which nobody confuses with documentary film techniques. You get point of view shots of the entire cast, for starters. I doubt Blair Witch 2 convinces anyone at all to take up Wicca. Or sorcery. Or the option to make another sequel.... I find the CAPAlert service useless. His rating system is esoteric enough to be useless. Highlander: Endgame features a fat diet of beheadings but it scores pretty well? Hello? A better service is Kids in Mind. It's value-free rating system lets you decide what you want to see. Considering in America that an "R" can encompass everything from near-pornorgraphic violence to a harmless movie that just uses "fuck" too often, I like their system a lot.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson, the Paranoid Minister on 11/4/2000; 12:14 PM Practising witchcraft is evil. If you do not believe that then you are not a Christian. Nope, and I'll ask you again not to put yourself in the place of the heads of every denomination on Earth. (You must think pretty well of yourself, to think that you can speak for two billion people.) Fact is, I cannot find any evidence that suggests to me that Wicca is essentially evil. They're not worshipping the Christian Satan, because they do not acknowledge his existence! Regarding the basic beliefs (at least, as MJ has recounted them), I find them no more strange or odd than, say, the Buddhist belief in karma, or the Catholic thing about the bread and the wine actually becoming the body and blood of Christ. What on Earth do you expect a Christian to do? Be tolerant of those who are different from them. Not support banning things you do not agree with, but rather, teach people why they're wrong. It's like the old line about fishing. Banning things outright is like giving a guy a fish. It may work for a little while, but ultimately it'll fail. Educating people about why things are wrong (in a non-inflammatory manner without references to the smoking pits of Hell) is like teaching a guy to fish. Done right, it'll work for a lifetime. Barring that, he could at least be consistent. This is the man that walked out of "Matilda" because he couldn't stand all the examples of "Impudence/Hate" presented. (Apparently he's incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality, and the reality is, very few families act like that.) Sometimes, he doesn't even watch the movies he's analyzing! In his review of "Deep Impact," he noted no examples of "Murder/Suicide," even though it's quite clear that Tea Leoni's mother killed herself because she didn't want to suffer through the asteroid impact. (Also, there's the matter of millions perishing in the tidal wave, the crew of the ship dying in a huge nuclear explosion to destroy the remaining asteroid, and Tea Leoni giving up her place in the caves to die on the beach with her father. I'd consider all of these at least worthy of consideration as some form of murder/suicide.) And I'm sorry, I just can't take seriously a man who once told me in an email that I had a "juvenile understanding" of his system, and he "would not see my mail in his inbox again." Then the first line in his .sig says, "In Jesus' name." To borrow a phrase from Morgan, I'm real sure Jesus told people to keep their damn mail out of His inbox, too.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Peter on 11/4/2000; 1:04 PM Matthew, you do not seem to understand my point. As a christian, the man finds pro-Satanism/Witchcraft propaganda offensive and thinks it puts some viewers in danger. What is wrong with this? Why criticise him for it? Why is he not entitled to publicise his views? Peter.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson, the Paranoid Minister on 11/4/2000; 1:08 PM And where have I said that he is not? I simply think he's going about things the wrong way and with not enough information to make informed judgments. Peter, you need to learn that when we criticize someone, we don't object to their right to say what they say, we object to the content of their message. They're two entirely separate things, and I don't think you've learned the difference yet.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Seth Dillingham on 11/4/2000; 1:30 PM On Saturday, November 4, 2000 at 5:20 PM, Peter (augustuscaeser@hotmail.com) wrote: >Why is he not entitled to publicise his views? They're not saying that. They're criticizing the views themselves. Seth
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Mark Morgan on 11/4/2000; 1:53 PM As long as he doesn't try to force me to agree with him, he's welcome to write whatever silliness he likes. Just as I'm then welcome to call his writing to task when it's silly. Speaking of which: wiccanism? What's that? It's Wicca. Wait, I remember what Wiccanism is: Wiccanism, the home of all the little Wiccanoid boys and girls, watching their Wiccavision monitors, talking on their Wiccacommunicators, and playing with their multimedia Wiccaentertainment systems. (Mark mocks himself--I called it Wiccanism over at nitcentral and Aradia asked, "What's that?")
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson, the Paranoid Minister on 11/4/2000; 2:17 PM Y'know, after all this time, I still can't read "Wiccacommunicator" without laughing out loud.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Peter on 11/4/2000; 5:14 PM You said he had to be tolerant. That implies his "intolerant" views must not be allowed. Peter.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Mark Morgan on 11/4/2000; 5:26 PM I disagree. You're reading too much into Matthew's critique, and into mine. He can be as intolerant as he wants, as long as he doesn't try to force his views on me. I am tolerant of his intolerance, but I reserve the right to speak out about it. Oliver Wendell Holmes referred to the marketplace of ideas. That marketplace does not work if we try to restrain speech we find unacceptable. Instead, when we find speech we find unacceptable we counter it with our own thoughts and feelings. May the best idea win. Pretty much the entire purpose of any essay I've ever written. Not to censor speech I don't like, but to counter it with what I consider to be better speech.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson, the Paranoid Minister on 11/4/2000; 8:34 PM You said he had to be tolerant. Wrong again. You asked, "What do you expect a Christian to do?" I responded, "Be tolerant of those different from you." I didn't say that he'd better be or I'd hire a few goons to come to his house or anything like that. But yes, I would expect tolerance from people who worship the man who said that one of the two greatest commandments was to love your neighbor as yourself, and that the whole world is your neighbor.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: juli k on 11/4/2000; 8:53 PM ***...he seemed to think no violence was ever justified, even moral violence, like the killing of an evil person, or the punishment of a sinner.*** Just out of curiosity, Peter, what kind of sins do you advocate punishing with violence, and what kind of violence do you recommend?
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Brian Carnell on 11/4/2000; 9:29 PM Peter wrote: >One girl chose the Blair Witch Project and a book about it. She stood there for five minutes or so trying to prove to us all that the Blair Witch must exist because of the unexplained deaths of three people in a forest. She didn't know it was fiction! >She wasn't exactly a genius, but she was certainly not stupid either, and had a pretty typical intelligence for a 16 year old, so I ask you, if that film can make people believe the witch is real, why will the sequel not encourage witchcraft? This is interesting as I know other people who also didn't realize the hype was hype for a movie and thought it was true. On the other hand I also know people who, until I dissuaded them, did not realize that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" was satire and honestly believed they were being forced to read pro-cannibal propaganda by their nutty English professors. I don't think it would be a very good idea to hold art hostage to the lowest common denominator of its potential audience (not that I thought Blair Witch was a particulary good movie -- a much better pseudo-docudrama film was "The Last Broadcast" which was much better done).
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Peter on 11/5/2000; 7:22 AM Just out of curiosity, Peter, what kind of sins do you advocate punishing with violence, and what kind of violence do you recommend? In that case, I was thinking mainly of war films, which obviously had to feature killing and death. I think remembering past wars fought is important, and films play their part in that. I would not like to see that go. Capital punishment too, I of course believe in, for most crimes, if you would count that as violence. Wrong again. You asked, "What do you expect a Christian to do?" I responded, "Be tolerant of those different from you." I didn't say that he'd better be or I'd hire a few goons to come to his house or anything like that. But yes, I would expect tolerance from people who worship the man who said that one of the two greatest commandments was to love your neighbour as yourself, and that the whole world is your neighbour. The Bible is very clear about encouraging witchcraft and evil it is very naughty! If you think that Christianity is okay and acceptable, and you have no problem with the man upholding those religious values, then you cannot criticise him for attacking the promotion of witchcraft. If you do, you are saying he cannot defend Christian ideas.
Re: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson on 11/5/2000; 12:30 PM Peter wrote: The Bible is very clear about encouraging witchcraft and evil ? it is very naughty! If you think that Christianity is okay and acceptable, and you have no problem with the man upholding those religious values, then you cannot criticise him for attacking the promotion of witchcraft. If you do, you are saying he cannot defend Christian ideas. Here again, you have made the assumption that Wicca is inherently evil. (And just where is Aradia, anyway?) I most certainly don't have a problem with him upholding his values. I object to him doing it in such a way that he projects those values onto the world aroud him. What works for him does not always work for me, and vice versa. If we are to survive, we must learn that everyone is different, and getting along does not require the elimination or condemnation of these differences. Anyway, Wiccans aren't worshipping Satan and thus don't really fall under the classification of evil. Unless you want to call every other religion on Earth an "Offense to God" (which, for all I know, he might), there's not much basis for putting Wicca under here. (This, of course, is ignoring the fact that I'm not even sure whether the movie portrays Wicca as a desirable thing to practice.)
Re: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Peter on 11/6/2000; 3:43 AM "Here again, you have made the assumption that Wicca is inherently evil. (And just where is Aradia, anyway?) I most certainly don't have a problem with him upholding his values. I object to him doing it in such a way that he projects those values onto the world aroud him." No, I have said that Christian belief states that using witchcraft on others is wrong. Tell me now, what precisely has he done to "project his values" onto you? It seems a normal review to me. Are you saying you somehow became more Christian as a result of it? As I said above, it would be inconsistent for a committed Christian not to crticise the promotion of immorality and witchcraft. To say he shouldn't be doing that is to be intolerant of his beliefs. Peter.
Re: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson, the Paranoid Minister on 11/6/2000; 6:21 PM As I said above, it would be inconsistent for a committed Christian not to crticise the promotion of immorality and witchcraft. And as I said above, I can find no evidence to indicate that Wicca ought to be considered any different from any other religion. Or would you like for him to criticize the promotion of Islam and Shinto as well? Once again, criticizing his commentary doesn't mean we criticize his right to make said commentary. If he's going to put it out there, he ought to expect people to disagree with him. (Unfortunately, all the evidence I have indicates that he doesn't.) With this, the second or third repetition of these ideas, I leave this thread. I cannot do anything to make you actually read what I'm writing, and if you won't do that, as you've not been doing, we'll get nowhere.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Brian Carnell on 11/6/2000; 6:56 PM Matthew wrote: >And as I said above, I can find no evidence to indicate that Wicca ought >to be considered any different from any other religion. Or would you like >for him to criticize the promotion of Islam and Shinto as well? Well, that's an interesting point. Should Christians then criticize the positive depiction of [Fill in Religion here]? If Hollywood were to produce a fictional dramatization of the life of the Dali Lama, does it make a lot of sense for someone to review it and say "It was great film, but unfortunately they forgot to point out that the Dali Lama is leading people away from Christ" or some such disclaimer? I mean it seems to me the problem we have here is somewhat of a cultural clash where both the Old and New Testament were written by and for societies in which this sort of view might have seemed normal, but largely because of certain cultural strains present in Christianity we now live in a secular society in which such claims are considered intolerant. As I've mentioned before I'm an atheist, but I get really put out when I see atheists strenuously attacking Christians as morons or irrational as some of the American Atheist propaganda used to. The local student atheist group are just plain obnoxious with signs saying "Oh, just evolve." Yuck. I have the same reaction to the CAP stuff. I don't care if they do it anymore than I care if the campus atheists want to campaign against Christianity, but on the other hand in a secular society that values tolerance I find both views extraordinarily narrow and overly rigid (actually I'm more sympathetic to the CAP folks because from what I've seen they're really catering to a specific audience rather than running around saying "lets boycott Hollywood because of all of their Satanic movies.") Plus we know historically that religious intolerance has led Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and atheists to kill each other willy nilly so it's a good idea to just agree to disagree on such matters.
RE: CAP and the Blair Witch By: Matthew Patterson, the Paranoid Minister on 11/11/2000; 4:21 PM I know I said I'd leave this thread, but my sense of sarcasm cannot go unappeased. From the Offense to God category of his "analysis" of Bedazzled (which I'm going to see tonight): woman claiming to be Satan Right. Because of course, only men are allowed be the incarnations of anyone important, good or evil.
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